A review of Aperion Intimus 422-LR or how to teach an old dog new tricks – ecoustics.com
Stof
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Username: Chitown
Post Number: 405
Registered: Apr-05
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Marantz SR8400 receiver, I updated my whole system into an HT and semi-retired my old Rotel RA-840 amplifier that I had for 15 years. After it sitting there for the past 6 months looking at me, I felt guilty and decided to setup a 2 channel system in our bedroom.
I didn’t want to spend a lot of money and our room is small so even a bookshelf speaker was out of the question. After looking around for a while I decided to give Aperion a chance and went with their Intimus 422-LR satellite speaker. I paired it with my old Boston Accoustics Subsat 6 subwoofer, I got a great deal from Saturday Audio Exchange on an old NAD CD player and I was up and running.
First off the company was really great to deal with. I ended up with their A-stock speaker which was 15% off (restocked but new). The UPS guy missed us for delivery and I had an e-mail from the company that they had noticed it and wondered if they could do anything. That was nice. The speakers arrived in a very heavily fortified box and the speakers were placed into a velvety feeling heavy bag that would have resisted any scratching.
The wooden box is gorgeous and the fit and finished was very good. My only complain is that the grill does not fit snuggly in. Perhaps this was the reason it was a-stocked, I don’t know. But otherwise it was flawless. They offered me a choice of free cables or 4 sets of good quality banana plugs. Since I still had miles of cable from my HT setup, I went with the banana plugs.
Now the sound.
I admit that in my selection the sound was almost secondary (gasp from the congregation). I will have no qualms about sending this unit back if I don’t like its sound, however size and cost were very important to me. In that I didn’t see a lot of stuff that is any good and the only speaker I can compare this to is the Monitor Audio R-90 which I tested at a local store here. I didn’t have a lot of expectation from this unit; however I am happy that so far it has exceeded them. Paired up with my small (2 x 6.5″) BA subwoofer it did a very good job of handling the range that I threw at it. I started with some BB King and went on to Led Zepplin and Coltrane. As a nod to our old friend Edster, I even found a Norah Jones CD which I didn’t even know we had (my wife had gotten it) and this was the beginning of my adventure.
I began to hear distortion in Norah Jones’s voice when she was hitting higher notes. That scared me a bit, so I pulled out the speakers and connected them as set B to my Marantz. No distortion at all. I realized that my Rotel amp is creating distortion on that level and it took the Aperion speakers to point that out. I’m not sure I had ever heard that with my old BA subsat 6 speakers. There was no other coloration from the speakers. These speakers, at least when paired with a subwoofer, compare very well to the smallish Monitor Audio R90’s that cost twice as much.
Now admittedly this speaker is limited compared to my Axiom M3ti’s especially when it was connected to my HT system and I was doing the A/B test, however for the price ($170 for the pair) and the limitations of my bedroom this is a really good choice. It blew the pants of my similar sized BA speakers. Though I am very fond of the BA speakers and they did well for me through my bachelor years and small apartments, I feel cheated that I paid so much for them 15 years ago ($750). For a third of the cost these Aperion’s deliver so much more. Now keep in mind that 15 years ago there was no such thing as wide access to the web and companies like Aperion had to probably rely on advertising in audiophile magazines to get their word across. With the internet, however that whole system of purchasing has been turned on its head and it is good news for us consumers. The world has gone flat and if you don’t believe me, read “The World is Flat” by Thomas Friedman.
If anybody comes on this forum and asks about something in lieu of a Bose acoustimass or whatever they repackaged them as these days, please point them to Aperion Intimus 422-LR. They are small, stylish and what they will do to the Bose speakers at less than the cost, I can not mention here or risk getting censored by the forum.
So at this point the Rotel is in the shop. I will continue to test these with my Marantz and I will let you know of any further development.
Nuck
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Username: Nuck
Parkhill ,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 241
Registered: Dec-04
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I am in the middle of small speaker conundrum and appreciate the post.
Enough sound to see that the old Rotel needs new caps? Exposing other needs? Good info for you eh?
Do keep us apprised.
Jamie
Stof
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Username: Chitown
Post Number: 407
Registered: Apr-05
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Art if you are reading any experience with these folks up there in Oregan?
Edster922
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Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2809
Registered: Mar-05
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huh? I post prices all the time here, never had a problem. You must be thinking of some other forums.
glad you like them, though.
ABB! (Anything But Bose! lol)
Anonymous
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Art Kyle
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Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2149
Registered: Feb-05
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I’ve never heard them and so I can’t comment except to say that Teri’s taste is very similar to mine. One exception is that she listens to female vocals alot more than I do.
Edster922
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you should ask her to demo the Ascends, I’d love to hear what she’d say about them though of course she’s got a bit of a vested interest in not being crazy about the Internet-direct competition.
Art Kyle
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Username: Artk
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USA
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Now Tim’s speakers may be a different story if he’s looking to get hooked up with a dealer network there are several dealers I could talk to.
Edster922
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Abubala ,
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Post Number: 2820
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Too bad I don’t live in your neck of the woods, I’d love to ask her if I could bring in some of my stuff and get her opinion. Especially if she’d agree to a blind test, heh!
I’m curious, how does Teri feel about blind testing?
Art Kyle
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Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2170
Registered: Feb-05
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Teri sell speakers in all price ranges. Again she is very fair in the discussions I have with her. She tells what she believes is the unvarnished truth. We discuss many brands which she doesn’t sell and that her competitors do and she often speaks well of the products that she doesn’t sell. She knows that she can’t sell me something that I don’t like and she doesn’t try. I believe that she is fair. In fact all of the audio dealers that I know personally are fair and speak well of each other. I’m sorry that you all live where that is not the case.
Edster922
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Post Number: 2824
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Well that’s just it, isn’t it—the role of subjectivity. High-end audio’s bread and butter is manipulating the consumer’s subjectivity to reap maximum profits.
This is usually done with a fair dollop of clubby elitism (“oh I’m forking out xxx amount of dollars for this so it must sound amazing, and reflects my oh-so-high standards and uber-sophistication which only other members of the audio elite can appreciate”) as well as mystical mumbo-jumbo.
Reminds me of a guy I once knew who swore that his cheap $8 bottle of wine tasted infinitely better when served from his $120 Austrian crystal glasses than a normal $2 Ikea wine glass.
Art Kyle
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Username: Artk
Albany ,
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USA
Post Number: 2175
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Edster, I’m not going to argue this with you. If you’re silly enough or gullible enough to be easily manipulated by the “audio elite” then I’m sorry for you. I actually trust the people I work with because they’ve earned it. You can contiunue to buy online and/or from CC and BB and remain in the dark. As for me, no one can manipulate my subjectivity, it belongs to me and is a unique characteristic of mine just as yours is for you. No one can tell me that I’m hearing something that I’m not. I don’t get played. And BTW “clubby elitism” is better than Panny cultism. Speaking of being gullible and duped…..
Edster922
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Abubala ,
Ababala
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If you honestly believe that then I’m sorry Art, you’ve already BEEN played.
> As for me, no one can manipulate my subjectivity,
Actually no, as long as one believes that one is incapable of being manipulated, one is very easy to manipulate.
In other words: the more tenaciously one clings to any illusion of certainty, the higher one’s propensity to become “gullible and duped.”
Edster922
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However I think 70% would be a fair guess, heck I’ve seen surveys where something like 70% of people said they would steal if they could be sure that nobody would ever find out. Human nature, that’s all.
I have met some genuine enthusiasts like yourself who were also honest and decent at the business end of things, and have nothing but respect for them.
Art Kyle
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Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2176
Registered: Feb-05
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I’m not the one with a Panny who thinks he’s found audio nirvana. Who’s been played?
“In other words: the more tenaciously one clings to any illusion of certainty, the higher one’s propensity to become “gullible and duped.”
Eddie I swear you’re getting as bad as Paul. Where have you been the last several months? I have learned by listening that some products which I had previously thought were not good had either changed or my tastes had. The Yamaha receiver for example. You are getting way out there.
I deal with honest proprietors. Some of which I have had to my home for dinner others whom I have been at their home for cocktails and dinner. You are simply living in a world of make believe. You don’t know any dealers personally so they must all be crooks. Perhaps you do know some dealers and they are all crooks. Either way it doesn’t matter, you’re wrong and that matters. I wish you would quit turning people off to working with the folks who are most likely to really be of some assistance, the audio dealer.
Stof, I would guess that she would look at her Tannoys and JM Focal Chorus lines.
Edster922
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No offense, but your reading skills leave a lot to be desired tonight. As I have already stated, I never said ALL audio proprietors are crooks…just made a rough guess that perhaps about 70% of them are and I’d make the same rough guess for car salesmen (or maybe a higher % there) but also 70% for humanity as a whole. Also you failed to note that I wrote Tawaun that I HAVE encountered honest audio salespeople myself on occasion.
As for your friend Teri, she might sit at the right hand of Moses, Jesus and Mohammed for all I know. However, just think about it: if she ever auditions a low-cost product like Internet-direct speakers or the digital Panny and found them to be nearly or equally as good as her mid- to high-end stock, do you REALLY think she’d WANT to admit it even to herself, let alone come out and tell you so?
I mean, how in the world could she then ever justify anyone coming into her shop and paying exponentially more for her mid- to high-end gear if she ADMITTED (even to herself, in private) that these new technologies have basically made much of her trade obsolete in one fell swoop?
Let’s just SAY that she tries out the Panny and has the same “hallelujah” experience that I did…do you honestly think that she would want to tell YOU, a longstanding and highly profitable customer, that the SQ from the system you’ve spent countless hours and dollars building and rebuilding is now available for a laugh-out-loud piddling $230?
She knows that she could never compete with the likes of Amazon.com if she ever started to push the Panny, it’s a hopelessly low-margin product for a brick and mortar store…THAT’s the main reason it’s so hard to find at most places, and those few places that carry it don’t promote or display it prominently for the very simple reason that it basically destroys their entire selling strategy.
Teri might be the reincarnation of Mother Teresa for all I know—but just like the rest of us, she has to put food on the table too. Her bias may be unconscious rather than calculated and deliberate, but it would be a very natural and understandable bias in any case.
This is not cynicism, it is simply a realistic understanding of human nature.
> I’m not the one with a Panny who thinks he’s found audio nirvana. Who’s been played?
Again you misunderstand. I don’t think the Panny is the greatest receiver on the face of the earth without any peer. I DO think, based on my personal experience and that of many other people on various forums, that for pure SQ it nearly equals, does equal, or even surpasses other analog receivers and amps many times its price.
I wouldn’t claim that the Panny provides “audio nirvana” in the absolute sense, but mainly in the RELATIVE bang-for-the-buck sense, for which it represents a sea change in the marketplace.
I mean, if you spend $5000 for an amp it darn better be awesome, but who cares, it’s a $5000 amp, big freakin’ deal. However if you spend $230 on a receiver and it comes even halfway close to the $5000 amp then IMO that’s one hell of a $230 receiver. And from what some people on these audio forums are reporting, this is a $230 receiver whose SQ comes way farther than 50% that of a $5000 amp.
THAT is what I find remarkable, because it indicates that either:
1. This $230 Panny is really all that.
…or,
2. A lot of people have been paying a HELL of a lot more for audio gear than their ears actually need.
And personally, I find both possibilities equally HILARIOUS!
Stof
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Username: Chitown
Post Number: 432
Registered: Apr-05
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Other listening tastes and also other reasons such as the ones I stated above for picking Aperion (cost, size and finish) will play into what people buy. So in that no educated customer should let a crooked dealer talk them into anything. Of course a lot of people still buy Bose, but that’s usually because they don’t do research. I make it a priority to research all details and learn as much as I can about any product before I purchase. That is not just limited to audio equipment.
Before I bought the Aperion’s I went to Saturday Audio Exchange (as well as others) to see what they have to offer. They had some used Definitive and Polk Audio and a set of Monitor Audio R90’s. Now this is a really beautiful and nice sounding speaker, and Of course they tried to push that on me, however at $360 a pair, they were out of my price range, regardless of how much I liked them. These are good guys at Saturday Audio, but even if they were crooked they would never be able to get me to buy something I don’t want.
Edster922
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However, I am NOT saying that *everyone* who spends more than $230 for a receiver is a dupe.
LOL, I’m only that dogmatic when I’m speaking about politics! : )
Stof
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Username: Chitown
Post Number: 433
Registered: Apr-05
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Now if you lived in Portland and took your speakers and may be the Panny to this shop and let Teri try it out and tell you specifically what she sees good/bad and why and show you something different, that would be a great educational experience. I don’t think you can reconcile those differences on a on-line forum.
Edster922
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(It was a cakewalk though because I was driving a friend’s nice Honda Accord and took a flight back from L.A.)
Art Kyle
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Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2182
Registered: Feb-05
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Teri is not mother Theresa, she is just like the other dealers I know, honest. If she listened to the Panny and thought it was the “second coming” like you do she would not only admit it she would try to carry it. If like me she thought it was a horrible sounding receiver she would likely laugh herself hysterical like I did when I auditioned it.
Stof, you have it covered. I couldn’t agree more than I do with your last 2 posts.
You’ll never hear me say that there aren’t crooked dealers. I’m just blessed to have gotten to know some of my regional dealers and know them to be honest. As Stof said even when I encounter crooked ones they won’t be able to talk me into making a purchase that that I don’t want to do. I’ve done my research (ongoing) and have a good grasp of the hobby.
Edster922
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Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
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Post Number: 2851
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Then she would knowingly put herself out of business. Somehow I can’t see that.
And “crooked” may be too strong of a word. “Self-interested” might be more accurate…and who is NOT self-interested, when it comes to business? Certainly not anyone who plans to stay in business for any extended length of time.
All I’m saying is that there are strong economic interests behind most of the cozy assumptions that are predominant in the audio subculture, and precious few “facts”—hence the importance of using blind testing as a way of “keeping it real” as the young’uns like to say.
Dakulis
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Username: Dakulis
Spokane ,
Washington
United States
Post Number: 662
Registered: May-05
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There’s way too much hyperbole going on here. I take a week off and my two good friends, Ed and Art, are at each other’s throats over the Panny. Wait a second, isn’t this like watching “Days of our Lives”, you miss it for 3 months, turn it on and you know exactly what’s happening? LOL
Oh, it’s the ongoing Panny proposition. Can we agree to disagree. Ed and BM are hooked. I haven’t time to get hooked because I need to hook up my Adcom amp, yep 125 wpc and kickin’ it up power, to my HT system this weekend. Got an incredibly good deal from a nice guy, after listening to a new one at our only locally owned, independent dealer.
Still waiting on the 2 channel system but my friend says it should be done by the end of November. Then, Ed, I’ll let you know what you’re missing in a $400 classic tube amp and AL speakers with a very good source. Bring the Panny over to the NW and we’ll try it out against either system for laughs. The HT will be with your Ascends so we should be able to get ya a pretty darn close a/b, I think.
Missed you guys, I’ve been buried and need to get back to work but wanted to stop in and say “hello”. Adios Dave.
Dakulis
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Username: Dakulis
Spokane ,
Washington
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Post Number: 665
Registered: May-05
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Will do. I miss you guys, too. But, I’ve spent so much money and time on audio the last few months, I’ve got to get some work done to pay for it all. “I’ll be back” but I’m not certain Arnold will be as the Governator. LOL
Edster922
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Art Kyle
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Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2197
Registered: Feb-05
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“Then she would knowingly put herself out of business. Somehow I can’t see that.”
Edter, I hope you aren’t in business. If she carried it how would she put herself out of business. The store here in Albany that displays and sell the Panny can’t get rid of them at any cost. People hear the HK and buy ’em.
“All I’m saying is that there are strong economic interests behind most of the cozy assumptions that are predominant in the audio subculture, and precious few “facts”—hence the importance of using blind testing as a way of “keeping it real” as the young’uns like to say.”
All I’m sayin’ is that the self interest of the consumer should inoculate them to the self interest of the “self interested” dealer. Do your research. Know what you want out of a system. Double blind testing is great in the interest of science, but this ain’t science. Audio is all about preference. While “keepin’ it real” remember what real is.
Stof
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Username: Chitown
Post Number: 440
Registered: Apr-05
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I’m happy.
Speaking of Martin Logan’s Eddie, I first heard their top of the line in that store about 15 years ago and I had the exact same thought as you about what I was going to do with my lottary winings. Then I walked out of there sheepishly with my Rotel and Boston Acoustics. 
Edster922
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Because anybody who listens to the Panny against most analog receivers under $1000 would likely pick the Panny, IMO. Especially if the salesperson were neutral or favorable towards it.
Problem is, I’m sure there ain’t much of a profit margin for a $230 receiver compared to a $1230 one, and she’s gotta keep those lights on.
> The store here in Albany that displays and sell the Panny can’t get rid of them at any cost. People hear the HK and buy ’em.
Well the few Circuit City stores that carry the Panny also carry HK, and I often read on forums like this of these stores having a hard time keeping them in stock.
So who knows, maybe Teri’s store only attracts fat-walleted consumers who’d be too snobbish to give a $230 receiver a fair listen. What’s the cheapest receiver that she carries, $500? $600?
> Double blind testing is great in the interest of science, but this ain’t science. Audio is all about preference. While “keepin’ it real” remember what real is.
Well if audio is all about “preference” then it should be up to the consumer to decide what they prefer, no? That’s why I tell people to take home the Panny and AB it against any other analog receiver.
You have every right to YOUR preferences, Art—so why not let others decide for themselves what theirs are? I’m not forcing anyone to buy the Panny, just telling them to go give it a listen.
Edster922
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you still got the BAs? Wow, I haven’t listend to those since I was in college, can’t even remember how they sounded.
Art Kyle
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Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2199
Registered: Feb-05
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Circuit City….LOL !!!
“You have every right to YOUR preferences, Art—so why not let others decide for themselves what theirs are? I’m not forcing anyone to buy the Panny, just telling them to go give it a listen.”
Ditto.
“So who knows, maybe Teri’s store only attracts fat-walleted consumers who’d be too snobbish to give a $230 receiver a fair listen. What’s the cheapest receiver that she carries, $500? $600?”
Fat walleted consumers..how ridiculous. I go there. I’ll say it again, Teri sells products in all price ranges. No she doesn’t sell Yorx or the Panny. Taste dictates that she draw the line somewhere (my words not hers). BTW Teri is not my best friend or even my best friend in the audio business, she is just an honest dealer. The other day when I told her that I was likely to upgrade my turntable from the Project Debut 3 she offered to take it in at 100% value on trade in for any upgrade table of my choice. She didn’t sell me that Project and would take a hit on it as she would sell it as used (1 week old). So why did she make the offer? Two reasons; 1)I am a good customer, 2)She wanted to hear the Project table with her gear to see if it is a budget table she should carry. She quit carrying the Music Hall budget table due to quality issues. She does business the right way. She, like Jim Ott at Northwest Audio Labs, and Jeff and Tim at Bradfords, understand the value of customer service. You only get one chance to do it right and they understand that.
You can keep selling people on buying at BB and CC as well as on line and I will keep advocating that folks take the time to visit other locally owned audio retailers. This is what we do.
Edster922
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Post Number: 2877
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It’s easy to run down BB and CC, which I sometimes do myself, but occasionally they do carry some decent stuff at not too terrible prices. The Panny is a good example, as was the Athena speakers that BB used to carry.
It’s interesting that you have not answered my question: what is the cheapest receiver that Teri carries? Lemme guess, a Marantz 4600, $400 online but she probably sells it for $450-500?
Sure, I understand that there is some value to the retail customer service that you are getting from these dealers…IF and ONLY if one is willing to pay for it. You obviously are willing, and Terri/Jim/Jeff/Tim are obviously giving you your money’s worth in customer service.
Most people who come to forums like this though have very different backgrounds and needs than yours. They have not spent most of their lives regularly attending live performances and ossifying their sonic tastes, and all they want is something that sounds good to THEM, without breaking the bank.
When large numbers of people find that this miraculous little $230 receiver nears, equals, or surpasses the SQ of receivers costing several times more, then does it not make sense to recommend that they keep this one at the top of their go-and-listen-to list? Especially if it allows them to put more money into their speakers and source players?
Art Kyle
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Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2201
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If as you say folks aren’t willing to pay for customer service and expertise then like you they deserve what they get.
Edster922
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As for the “expertise” I’m missing out on, it sounds more like I’ve missed being indoctrinated on the merits of hyped-up cables and interconnects, nitpicking surround speakers and DVD players, etc.
Art you may want to consider what Steve Jobs now says he learned after his first stint with Apple: instead of giving people what YOU think is best for them, give them what THEY want.
(I know I’m setting you up for an obvious putdown of iPods, but so be it.)
My point is that most people want the best sound for the buck, not the best sound that’s out there period.
Art Kyle
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Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2204
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“Art you may want to consider what Steve Jobs now says he learned after his first stint with Apple: instead of giving people what YOU think is best for them, give them what THEY want.”
The problem is Eddie that they often don’t know what they want and if we have information that may lead someone toward the excitement of good hifi I think we should share that. I’m not giving advice that is out of the stated budget of the posters that I respond to.
“As for the “expertise” I’m missing out on, it sounds more like I’ve missed being indoctrinated on the merits of hyped-up cables and interconnects, nitpicking surround speakers and DVD players, etc.”
This is a statement that I would expect Paul to say. Not that you are well informed because you are not, but at one time I thought you may be open to learn. I was wrong. Thanks to the expertise and craftsmanship of my dealers I don’t spend a fortune on esoteric cables but my system sounds like I did. “nitpicking surround speakers”, is that like “wine and cheese” speakers. I give the advice that it is best to timbre match all of your speakers in a surround system. How is that wrong or nitpicking? You’ve gone off the deep end.
Stof
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Username: Chitown
Post Number: 446
Registered: Apr-05
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Now last night I went to Audio consultant to pick up my unit and we realized that it actually was not fixed. However this is where I have to give partial deference to Art’s points here. When we realized it wasn’t fixed, they let me look into the used section and take home a loaner until they fixed my Rotel. Of course now I’m walking in the there like a kid in a candy shop looking through all the Mcintosh, Marantz, Rotel, Bryson and some others to take something home. Scott, the guy who originally sold me my Rotel and BA 15 years ago is still there as the store manager. He warned me that if I took the Bryson home I would want to keep it. At $1300 I took his words for it and instead went for a higher end Rotel. I will let you guys know how I liked it.
My point here is that there is something to be said for paying more at a local store to get this kind of service. You know that I’m an internet freak and still get most of my stuff through the web, but there was something really special in being able to do this last night. I think aside from snub vs. value factor that you are Art keep debating about, there is a lot to be said for having this kind of a store and this kind of relationship for people who constantly look for better sound and value and deem this service as part of the better value
Now I’m not one to push for old technology and firmly believe that newer technology will give better quality and better price. Who knows, this Panny may be a paradigm shift, but I will rather wait for the higher end companies that build nothing but good equipment to build a product that I would want to buy, not a company that caters to what BB and CC want to put on their shelf and make its margins in high volume.
Edster922
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Post Number: 2890
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
That’s the thing, your idea of “good hifi” is basically whatever confirms YOUR experience of listening to a lot of live music and analog-amped music for the past 30 years. Most consumers do *not* have that history and therefore find the Panny to be an exceptionally pleasing receiver especially at its pricepoint. So why should any of them spend more for an HK when they would be as happy if not happier with the Panny? Why should they NOT go and listen to both receivers side by side, instead of just taking your word or my word for it?
I have consistently ENCOURAGED people to demo the Panny side by side with any analog receiver or amp they’re looking at. In contrast, you have lately started to go out of your way to DISCOURAGE them from *even considering* the Panny…now why is that? What are you afraid of, Art?
> You’ve gone off the deep end.
Very ironic you say that, that exact phrase was one of Paul’s favorites! LOL
I’m quite open to learning, which is why I try to go listen to other gear whenever I can. The difference is that I try to be very aware of the possibility of not only salespeople playing tricks on me, but more importantly the possibility of MY OWN EGO playing tricks on me. The EGO is a far more insidious threat to objectivity than any salesperson.
With some simple AB testing, both of those risk factors are considerably diminished, especially if it’s blind AB testing.
> Thanks to the expertise and craftsmanship of my dealers I don’t spend a fortune on esoteric cables
In that case, why don’t you tell me how much you spent on your cables? Or will you conveniently ignore this question just as you have (twice) ignored my question on what’s the cheapest receiver your friend Teri sells?
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2891
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
I’m sure that some people find a lot of value in having some gorgeous real wood paneling in their cars or having some gorgeous real wood casings for their speakers. I simply don’t, and am not willing to pay for it.
> Now I’m not one to push for old technology and firmly believe that newer technology will give better quality and better price. Who knows, this Panny may be a paradigm shift, but I will rather wait for the higher end companies that build nothing but good equipment to build a product that I would want to buy, not a company that caters to what BB and CC want to put on their shelf and make its margins in high volume.
I understand your reservations, though I should say that I have read of several people who preferred the digital Panny to the digital HK 2005, not to mention those who’ve preferred the Panny over their own Rotel and Krell gear which they ended up selling off, as well as a host of other much more expensive analog receivers like the HK7200 and Denon 5800.
I don’t mean to pressure you, but am simply and genuinely very curious: why WOULDN’T you be willing to just give it a risk-free home demo courtesy of Circuit City (or if you buy online, ship it back for a mere $15) if you hate it? I mean, what do you have to lose, really?
Art Kyle
Gold Member
Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2206
Registered: Feb-05
Posted on
Please!
“You’ve gone off the deep end.”
“Very ironic you say that, that exact phrase was one of Paul’s favorites! LOL”
Proof positive that he wasn’t always wrong!
Well Eddie I think we’ve carried this one on long enough. Do we have any esoteric cables or power conditioners to debate…lol !
Stof, your point is well taken and just one of the reasons I deal with folks who have been around a long time and who I know are honest and have a great service ethic.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2894
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
Are you being coy with the real-world numbers today? : )
Stof
Silver Member
Username: Chitown
Post Number: 448
Registered: Apr-05
Posted on
I really don’t consider myself as one with trained ears. Most likely I will put it in and decide it sounds the same as others. I will promise that it will not make me sell my Marantz to buy a panasonic. My reasonings for picking a product go beyond pure sound and I have listed some of them above. One of them is the business practice of Panasonic and Sony and some of the others who mass produce for the throw away civilizations. I on the other hand will return a 15 year old amp for a “lube job” and continue to use it. The Marantz I purchased for its HT and connectivity capabilities, and just happen to luck out on Ubid.
My next receiver will probably throw 3D hallowgraphs of the performers in my living room.
Anonymous
Posted on
That would be sweet…
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2900
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
Could you elaborate on these “business practices” please? I guess I tend to assume that almost everything we buy these days is probably made in some Third World country by some 10 year old kids getting paid 10 cents an hour 10 hours a day 7 days a week.
But in any case, I respect your effort to base your decisions on long-term and global concerns, and your candor in admitting that you most likely would decide that the Panny “sounds the same as others.”
Edster922
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Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2901
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
Art Kyle
Gold Member
Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2207
Registered: Feb-05
Posted on
Dancing around it, I didn’t dance around it I simply paid it no mind. I don’t know what Teri’s least expensive receiver is and I don’t care. Stereotypes is one of three dealers that I regularly deal with. I provided a comprehensive list of the product lines they carry on another thread. I suggest that if you have a deep desire to know you will look up that list and do your research. As for my custom interconnects they cost $45 per pair and my speaker cable is $2 per foot. Both of which I have stated on other threads that you were a part of.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2904
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
Well there it is…you claim that you are not “fat-walleted” yet you seem fairly nonchalant about budget issues, or rather you have a very different idea of the whole “budget” concept. My approach to audio is, “get the best bang for your buck before you start hitting the law of diminishing returns.” Since you are obviously working with a much higher budget, your approach is more like “get the best sound you can possibly afford short of bouncing checks or getting divorced”—neither approach is better or worse, just different, and it’s important to keep in mind that they’re different.
I was only asking about Teri’s least expensive receiver with regard to the theoretical situation where she hears the $230 Panny and likes it and considers carrying it herself. My point is that if her cheapest receivers start at $600 and up, and if the majority of her customers start going for the Panny in droves she’d end up making far less money. That’s just simple business logic—we all know that the vast majority of retailers have a percentage not flat markup.
Let’s say the Panny costs $165 wholesale and Amazon is making roughly a 40% margin which would mean $66 per unit. In contrast a Marantz 5500 might cost Teri $450 wholesale and with the same 40% margin she’d pocket a $180 profit per unit, i.e. almost TRIPLE what she’d be making per Panny. So if I were a brick and mortar retailer with much higher overhead than an online retailer, of course I’d prefer to push the Marantz!
You’re kidding yourself if you seriously think *any* brick and mortar audio dealer would, out of sheer honesty, want to carry the Panny even if he heard it and thought it was the second coming.
This INCLUDES the big-box places…like I said, only a few physical Circuit City stores carry the Panny, and those that do, do not prominently feature or promote it. Very easy to understand why: the more expensive the product, the higher their profits. So if the average audio consumer has never even heard of these digital Pannys, why would ANY audio retailer want to encourage them NOT to fork out 3-5 times as much money for some clunky analog receiver that actually sounds the same if not worse? They’d be shooting themselves in the foot.
As for accessories—just for comparison, my generic Phillips interconnects run $4 each for the analog RCAs and maybe $8 each for digital coax; my generic 12-gauge speaker cable is about 50 cents a foot (1/8th as much). Maybe *you* don’t consider what you spent to be “a fortune” compared to people who buy $200/foot cables but for the average newbie who only has $1-2K to spend on a whole system, this is not exactly small change.
Nuck
Silver Member
Username: Nuck
Parkhill ,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 323
Registered: Dec-04
Posted on
Anyhow, I DID hear the Panasonic a 70 I’m sure, with a pair of Audio Logic speakers and it hurt just to listen.
Then a Technics receiver which sounded …better, much, still not very good.
It is not very useful, this Panasonic, for the budget listener.
Over and outta there.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2911
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
AudioLogic speakers? Never heard of them. Link?
Haven’t listened to a Technics receiver myself since the 80s when I bought one for my first audio system at the age of 15, with Sansui speakers, Teac tape deck and BSR turntable. Seems like another lifetime ago…lol
Stof
Silver Member
Username: Chitown
Post Number: 451
Registered: Apr-05
Posted on
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/14/business/14rights.html?8hpib
Certainly child labor is one of the issues, but my main beef at this point with these companies is that they have become so big, that they have given up on true innovation and are instead content to not only bow to the likes of Wal-mart CC and BB, but to their own internal divisions that see technology innovation as threat to piracy for their music and movie revenues. My six year old Sony DVD player did not play ripped CD’s that my 11 year old Rotel does. Why? Did Sony not have the technology to make it work? You and I know that wasn’t the issue.
As a continuation of my saga in putting my bedroom 2 speaker system together I realized Saturday night after putting my newly lubed Rotel Amp back with my NAD CD player that Ms. Jones still whines in high frequencies and craks up. Far be it from me to suggest anything wrong in Ms. Jones’s voice so I replaced the NAD with my Denon DVD player and realized the problem was with the CD player all along. (Although the Rotel certainly needed the lube job). So on Sunday I took the NAD back to Saturday Audio Exchange and after testing to verify the crack in high frequencies, without any hesitation, they offered me a used Rotel RCD-855 CD player. This unit cost $80 (only $30 after getting ar return from my NAD). This is one impressive unit. The transport is fantastic, and I have read reviews since that it is still considered one of the best CD players ever made.
Now Edster surely you see the difference in the value of getting this kind of service vs. real wood paneling in the car. The aforementioned problem with the business practice of the Panasonic’s and Sony’s of this world in bowing to the mass produced expectations of Wal-mart is that the margins for this level of service, as well as product quality, simply gets washed down the toilet. Instead it ends up on cost cutting measures in R&D, inferior components, simple waste in one division overruling great projects and innovations of another and in the case stated by NY times above, harming the consumer and destroying their brand reputation.
Simply put, there is no way you can make a business case for me to throw away my Marantz at $450 to get a Panasonic at $235. What prompts those other people to get rid of their Krell or whatever else to get the panny is beyond any logical comprehension to me.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2928
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
I was already familiar with Sony’s evil ways regarding CD copyright protections (apparently their CDs would sound a lot better if they didn’t pile so much anti-piracy countermeasures on them) but have never heard anything like that regarding Panasonic/Matsushita which I don’t think is in anywhere near the same league of corporate mega-empire. But I may be wrong. Am I? I don’t often read the business pages.
> The aforementioned problem with the business practice of the Panasonic’s and Sony’s of this world in bowing to the mass produced expectations of Wal-mart is that the margins for this level of service, as well as product quality, simply gets washed down the toilet. Instead it ends up on cost cutting measures in R&D, inferior components, simple waste in one division overruling great projects and innovations of another and in the case stated by NY times above, harming the consumer and destroying their brand reputation.
The Walmart phenomenon is just a reflection of the zeitgeist, the overall dumbing down and cultural degeneration of western postindustrial societies as a whole, especially here in American society. Our newspapers have mostly become tabloids, our politicians are focus-grouped to pander to the most idiotic common denominator, which naturally just wants cut-rate cheap cheap cheap everything and Walmart does that very well, mainly on the backs of exploited Third World labor.
> Simply put, there is no way you can make a business case for me to throw away my Marantz at $450 to get a Panasonic at $235. What prompts those other people to get rid of their Krell or whatever else to get the panny is beyond any logical comprehension to me.
Actually my advocacy of the Panny is based on TWO things: the jaw-dropping price, AND what I consider to be their all-around superior SQ (though some like Art will vehemently disagree of course) due to their TI Equibit technology.
If the xr55 cost $800 I probably wouldn’t buy it mainly because my wife would kill me LOL, but after hearing it AB against say an HK635 I think I would still be very impressed by it.
Nuck
Silver Member
Username: Nuck
Parkhill ,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 338
Registered: Dec-04
Posted on
My dodge R/T will sit while I try the neon, but not be sold just because the driveway is tight.
(poor analogy, but you grt the point)
Most of us would try the cheepie, whilst the quality sits on the sides, ya?
Anyhoe the Panny is a load of junk from my audition, and would be the first thing sold to raise a few bucks…
Very few once you heard it.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2938
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
well it’s hard to argue against an AB (or in my case, an A-B-C) comparison. If my mind is playing tricks on me it’s doing so very consistently, in that case.
And here’s another empirically meaningless little anecdote: My reformed-Yuppy friend David came over tonight and listened to the Panny. In his Yuppy heyday he was pretty big into audio and unlike me had the wallet to sink big bucks into very high end equipment—Bryston separates and the like. He came away very impressed. We didn’t get a chance to AB against the NAD because it was in the bedroom and I was too lazy to go put it back in the living room, but he definitely preferred its sound to that of my Marantz 5400 which I fired up for him.
Edster922
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Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2939
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
yep well sometimes life is full of surprises isn’t it?
Not sure there’s much diff between a Dodge R/T and a Neon, I would never buy an American car any more than Art would a Panny receiver, LOL.
I’d gladly take a Mazda Miata over a Corvette though, the second is an ugly, unreliable and bloated POS even if it costs 3x more.
btw, in the receivers section I link to a guy on the AVS forum who’s selling off his $2500 Rotel amp in favor of the Panny. Now ain’t that a gas?
LOL the gods they must be laughin’.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2947
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
Stof
Silver Member
Username: Chitown
Post Number: 463
Registered: Apr-05
Posted on
Jake: What did you do with our Blue’s mobile man?
Elwood: I traded it in for a microphone.
Jake: (after some thought) I can see that.
That dude sounds about as smart as Elwood.
I was at BB the other day looking for a universal remote and I peeked into their A/V equipment. They did not have the Rx-55 unfortunately, only 2 of the Elite series. If I see it somewhere I will definitly take a listen.
I tell you though at this point it will take Mr. Mcintosh and Mr. Martin Logan themselves appearing with gifts in their hands to pry me away from my new (used) Rotel set in my bedroom.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2948
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
You’d be much better off forking out $15 return shipping to home audition it through Amazon.com in part because these big box stores usually have crappy setup/listening rooms. Plus people often find that after about 3 days break/burn-in the Panny’s sound improves quite a bit. (I had a similar experience, left it on all day while I was at work.)
Much of your experience will probably depend on your speakers though.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2952
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
Eduardo Nietzsche, who’s that? Sounds like a pen name to me. LOL
To AB with the Marantz, you’d only need to switch 3 plugs: front L speaker, front R speaker, and analog CD in. As long as you have banana plugs you should be fine.
And you only need to do it once: after listening to only the Panny for about 3 days, switch back to the Marantz.
Art Kyle
Gold Member
Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2236
Registered: Feb-05
Posted on
“ooh la la, didn’t expect flaming from YOU, Art! So much for democratic principles…LOL”
That ain’t flaming…
“btw, in the receivers section I link to a guy on the AVS forum who’s selling off his $2500 Rotel amp in favor of the Panny. Now ain’t that a gas?”
This is! lol….
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2954
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
Only because the Rotel guy is not directly participating on THIS forum so you’re not calling him an idiot to his face? Art, I thought you were a social worker, not a lawyer! LOL
tsk tsk Art, THIS to me seems disturbingly reminiscent of vintage Paul behavior: name-calling those who simply have different tastes than you do.
Kano
Silver Member
Username: Kano
Post Number: 753
Registered: Oct-04
Posted on
Another guy sold his HK8000 M&K system for the Xbox Spherex System thinking it would be better.
There’s one born every minute.
Art Kyle
Gold Member
Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2244
Registered: Feb-05
Posted on
So does advocating cheap junk in the name of different taste. No one said he was always wrong.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2964
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
honest question: can you post a link to that guy with the Xbox, or are you pulling this one out of your @ss?
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2965
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
ROTFL…ah, deja-vu: That’s EXACTLY what Paul always said about those of us advocating “pint-sized, wine-and-cheese” bookshelf speakers.
Paul also had a hard time seeing how so many other people had very different tastes than his.
Art Kyle
Gold Member
Username: Artk
Albany ,
Oregon
USA
Post Number: 2250
Registered: Feb-05
Posted on
And that is what you always said about his Cerwin Vega’s and Bose. It appears you two weren’t far apart either.
Actually I’ve heard Paul’s receiver and it’s a darn sight better than yours. In the end perhaps he got the last laugh.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2971
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
> Actually I’ve heard Paul’s receiver and it’s a darn sight better than yours. In the end perhaps he got the last laugh.
LOL, whatever you say, Art.
I find it interesting that lately you have taken to following me around here just to put in your disparaging comments on the Panny. That’s exactly what Paul used to do to everyone else who didn’t share his tastes.
Again, I have to ask: what are you afraid of, Art? That most people who home-demo the Panny with an open mind as per my suggestions might (gasp!) end up liking it better than other far more expensive analog receivers? You once said on another thread that unlike me, you “couldn’t care less” what others here buy. This new behavior of yours contradicts that assertion.
Edster922
Gold Member
Username: Edster922
Abubala ,
Ababala
The Occupation
Post Number: 2972
Registered: Mar-05
Posted on
All very puzzling behavior coming from such a (before this) gentlemanly fellow…
Nuck
Silver Member
Username: Nuck
Parkhill ,
Ontario
Canada
Post Number: 381
Registered: Dec-04
Posted on
